4 Reasons FinTech Partnerships Fail with Jason Henrichs from Alloy Labs

Caleb:
recorded on this thing, my mic has come in way too hot, and I’ve had to go back and actually recut my lines word for word and try to match it back up.

Jason:
Have you tried turning the gain way down? Because you’re nice and close to the mic anyway.

Caleb:
It’s down as low as it can go and then on Riverside 2 here I’m trying to adjust my input level so I’m not… Can maybe I shoot it back up a little bit? I don’t know.

Jason:
Yeah.

Caleb:
We usually

Jason:
Do

Caleb:
use

Jason:
I

Caleb:
our

Jason:
sound

Caleb:
nice,

Jason:
okay?

Caleb:
yeah, you sound great. We usually use our nice in-studio mics at our office, but I’m remote today. the small mic off Amazon. All right, ready?

Jason:
Ready? Let’s do this.

Caleb:
Well, Jason Henrichs, it’s great to have you back on the Community Bank Podcast. It’s been a few years. How are things up your way? Is it Minnesota?

Jason:
Minnesota, I think actually the move took place from Chicago. I was in Chicago last time we were here and I, you know, I always a pleasure to be back. Big fan of both the South State blog that Chris Nichols writes in the podcast that you guys produce. You know, it’s not often you can say, wow, amazing thought leadership comes out of the community banking space, but you love what you guys produce.

Caleb:
Well, I want to say you and Patrick Sells were on, it may have been our second show of all time, maybe our third show of all time, and I was the producer at the time. I was not the host like I do now, but I was in the room and Eric Bagwell and Tom Fitzgerald were interviewing you and I was the producer. And I remember they asked you a question that we had pre-canned, you know, probably already written down, and you gave a response. And after you were done talking, all three of us looked at each other like lost puppies, wondering what in the world did he just say. All of that went over our head and then we realized this is the guy we need to be talking to because he’s making us sound way smarter than we are.

Jason:
Wow. Well, I mean, it’s funny you bring up Patrick. So Patrick has a new startup called True Digital that is very timely. The topic that we were going to talk about today, which is partnerships that we actually just signed a partnership between Alloy Labs and our, since the time that We were last on Alloy Labs. If you looked at us as a single entity, we are now the 12th largest bank in the country. So north of 80 banks involved working hand in hand as a cooperative, but it allows us to do things like create a partnership with True Digital, which itself is in the business of helping build better partnerships between banks, partners, and vendors. And

Caleb:
Yeah.

Jason:
so give some great Patrick’s stories in this as well.

Caleb:
Well, it’s good to have you back on. I mean, I think this show, we’re now up to 140 something shows, not as many as Breaking Banks, the show that you host that you’ve been doing for 10 years now. But for folks that missed the second or third episode of the Community Bank podcast back in 2020, catch us up. What is Alloy Labs? Tell us about your show, Breaking Banks, and everything you do in the financial services industry.

Jason:
Well, according to my wife, the reason we don’t get invited to dinner parties anymore is because all I can talk about is banking and FinTech. In fact, we just had to host a table at a fundraiser where she’s on the board. And it was two FinTech VCs and two bank CEOs here, local to Minnesota. And I had to send out a disclaimer to all of the spouses, equally mixed here, two husbands, two wives that, Hey, um, we will talk about things other than banking and FinTech partnerships. Alloy Labs just celebrated its fifth anniversary, which is pretty awesome. We’re a consortium that it is banks that have worked together, not in terms of what they get from ABA or ICBA, but really working hand in hand around how do we help community banks thrive in the evolving world? And that means solving two different problems. First is how do we more efficiently keep up in the digital arms race? You know, even, you know, a well-capitalized, well-run bank like South State has limited resources compared to the infinite number of things that you would like to go to and show how can we do that more efficiently that leaves both the mind share and the budget and the energy to go do the things that we can more effectively go find ways to differentiate. So you will find we work on some mundane things like, Hey, coming out of our annual member meeting, one of the places we’re spending a lot of time working right now is around standards and standardization of the boring things of KYC and KYB, but each of us doing it in a slightly different way means you can’t throw RPA, robotic process automation, against it as easily. But if we create some standards around this, we can actually then begin to build on top of that things that create efficiencies for us. And on the far end of the we run our reverse accelerator called the concept lab. And the concept lab is not about teaching a startup to be a better startup, it’s taking things that are bank adjacent. I like to call it the edge of money, right? We as banks tend to think of being the center of the money in the monetary universe for our customers. But at the end of the day, no one wakes up and says, hey, I wanna get a mortgage today, right? Like that’s just not, maybe a banker does, you know, when rates move. But for the rest of us, that’s part of a story called getting married or having a kid relocating for a job, kids going to college, preparing for retirement and, you know, buying a house somewhere warmer than Minnesota in the summer. Right. So how do we fit into the edge of money in that life that is deeper than the money flowing in, money flowing out? And that’s not just for consumers, right? For the majority of community banks who say their business. is really driven by small business and community or commercial real estate. How do we fit into their lives? Cause this is around adding value. And unless you can show your value is greater than the cost portion of this, you end up in a rate-based competition and in a zero interest rate policy world. No one wants to compete on rate. So it really is. How do we shift this into a value-based relationship? Because relationship being friendly is not enough to make it sticky. when we’re talking significant differences in rate on the line.

Caleb:
Well, you say you have 80 member banks. What makes a good member? Is it asset size? Is it mindset, culture of the bank? What do you sort of look for as you’re adding members?

Jason:
Oh, that is a great question. So one is we do actually have an application process. Um, not everyone gets in. And in fact, if people aren’t participating, we recommend, Hey, you don’t renew your membership next year. Like we appreciate you. We think you’re great, but if you don’t have the time to put energy into this, you’re not actually adding value to the collective. So you get kicked out of the co-op, if you will. Um, it is an asset size. So we have a handful of sub billion dollar banks. And then we have banks the size of South State and First National Bank of Omaha and UMB that what they’re getting out of this, right? And, you know, Bremer joined last year for the exact same reason. It’s like, hey, this makes our day jobs easier and better. One member had said this has dramatically reduced the number of consulting dollars that they need to spend. Like if they’re doing a search for a new technology provider, they, you know, can… more quickly due diligence, just talking to other members about this, saying, Hey, who’s had the best experience with Salesforce and what did you wish you knew going into it? You know, the, won’t say it’s one of the big firms, but one of our bigger banks saying, Hey, you know, we used to hire these big firms that come back, give us, you know, a pretty set of pictures around what our strategy needs to be. What we really realized is by doing the concept lab and doing a lot of experimentation on, Hey, where are there things we can you know, build partnerships that are outside of traditional banking. We’re going to build our strategy. This is what I teach in my strategy class at some of the graduate schools of banking. I call it the empirical approach to strategy as opposed to the theoretical approach in terms of what they go do. So I would say, all right, we over index on banks that are builders and doers. And they are committed to this idea that my competition is no longer at this other community bank. Right. It is the macro trends that are changing as we think about how the world of finance is going to work and we either do it together or we slide in top solutions because we just not enough hours in the day, not enough dollars in the budget to actually go do this by oneself.

Caleb:
I was talking to somebody the other day about what I do, correspondent banking. This person’s not a banker. And he was like, what? Like A, I didn’t know that even existed. And B, how did you just get into that? Like that’s such a niche kind of role, you know, helping other small banks with things that big banks can do. How do you even get into that? I kind of wondered that about you too. How do you just, did you just sort of fall into the banking space? Did you? work for a bank prior, how does somebody like you start doing these kinds of things?

Jason:
So roll back to 1994. I was working at Deluxe Corporation, the check printer, as a fluidics engineer. Turns out I’m not a very good engineer. Turns out I also do not really enjoy manufacturing and was doing plant consolidation at the time. I moved to Boston to work for a consulting firm and they asked, do you wanna do banking or do you wanna do manufacturing? I’m like, this is 1997. I’m like, I will do whatever it takes to not do manufacturing. Uh, I still ended up, unfortunately developing a little bit of expertise in the aluminum world. Um, but primarily what I did was focused on financial services. Fast forward to, you know, left with the startup bug. You do what you know, and which in my case, it’s, you know, things that sell into financial services and then was recruited to a venture firm. And so this is early 2000s was. FinTech was not even a phrase yet, but you do what you know. And my network was things that sell into banks or play in the financial world. Right. So I led the series A for Memento, which was bought by FIS in 2008. But this is 2002 doing things that are selling to banks. And then were things where I really cut my teeth as it relates to banking. I was recruited to first Marvel head, the big private student lender. And my job was called strategic implementation. which meant if it was on strategy and we didn’t do it, my team had to go make it happen. And one of those things was the realization that we were doing close to a billion dollars a year in private student loans on our own account. So we were our third largest brand, was our own brand after B of A and Chase, and we were doing it on a warehouse line. And so one day the CFO came over and just like, Jason, we need to be a bank. I’m like, how hard can it be to go become a bank? Turns out it’s really hard by the way. And then in 2008, I co-founded one of the first challenger banks in the world called Perk Street. with the idea being gathering deposits is hard for community banks because they quickly reach stasis in the local market because they’re dependent on their branches. And unless you’re willing to pay up on rate to get broker deposits, how do you scale that? Right. And they really, as I had mentioned earlier, focus most on the SMB side of the house is where they compete when, but they really do need sticky, inexpensive deposits. And those tend to be consumer. right? And a couple other pockets now. But that is really where Perksri came in was to be a front end, inadvertently realizing we were creating the modern Baz world, which is, hey, can we gather deposits for you because of some additional value we add? So in the post-Perksri world, I stumbled into alloy labs. I first thought I was going to retire and then got banks calling saying, hey, can you help us with digital transformation? And the aha for me, show my Midwest roots here was if I put my strategy hat on, it doesn’t matter how good I can help a bank rethink its digital transformation. That is not going to be enough for them to win. It might slow down the eventual slide into obscurity, but they needed something more. And how do you do that in a way that’s under resourced? And showed. saw two interesting models right down the street from me. The first is Land O’ Lakes and the other is Ocean Sprite. You could say, what does butter, cheese and cranberries have to do with banking? Well, these cooperatives that are now big brands that are owned by the farms behind them were actually cooperatives that started as family farms were addressing the threat posed by commercial agriculture. In the deep pockets, think JP Morgan sized level of, hey, we can go buy bigger combines and planters, we have deeper areas of expertise than the family farm has. How do you actually respond? And so those collectives that you work cooperatives literally rolling up sleeves and sharing shovels, you know, was the response and said, hey, there’s a model here within financial services that we can actually go make this work.

Caleb:
Well, if there’s any career takeaways through your journey, to me, the couple themes would be one, don’t feel like you have to have your entire career planned out when you’re 23, graduating college, because there may be jobs that don’t even exist yet that you may have. And two, there’s a lot of value to be gained from bringing in a broad amount of experiences and making connections. Ocean spray is a good example of pulling from one industry and applying it to another.

Jason:
Now, Caleb, I think you make a really important point about that. When we think about how banks tend to think about their business, their business model is a bank. My strategy is to be a bank. My comparables are, I look at other banks and the peer group you should actually bring in and not to pick on the investment bankers that are doing these presentations during strategic planning session. It is not looking at banks of similar asset sizes and comparing ROA and ROE. Right. That’s not your competition anymore. Go look at what Greenlight is doing and their cost of funds and what their income streams look like and go look at, you know, what, um, some of the big wire houses are doing. I think one of the biggest threats to community banks that they don’t realize is. people, if you think of where the bulk of where your money is, it is at an investment account, right? And several of them are doing very phenomenal things to say, hey, we don’t just want to have the balance sheet. We’re going to go after the income statement as well for these customers and small businesses in the services we provide. And then you also have to keep up with, you know, what are the Amazons of the world doing? What, you know, what is that experience look like? It might not you know, call itself a bank, but my balance, well, this is driven by my wife’s addiction, which I can say since she will never listen to this podcast, you know, the amount of stuff we buy and return to Amazon. And if you walk into the UPS store and if you’re going to get a credit, you know, anyway, putting it on your Amazon account, you get the instant credit as opposed to waiting a couple of days for it to go back in the car. Oh, I know my money is going to go to Amazon anyway, so I might as well take the instant credit so I don’t have to track the whole thing. Right. So it is not uncommon for us to have a balance in our Amazon account that is pretty close to our checking account because we’re sweeping stuff out of checking and keeping it, you know, mainly in a money market or, you know, CDs to manage liquidity. But Hey, wait a second. I’m not earning any interest on my Amazon account, but they’re a de facto bank account for me.

Caleb:
Yeah, well, I think it’s a great transition to talk about partnerships. Now that’s what we wanna get to today over the next few minutes. And I’d love to just kind of give you a free menu to say, okay, when you think about community bank partnerships with Fintechs, we’re thinking about the community banks that are between 100 million and two or three, four billion in assets that want to remain independent, that have a forward thinking management team that want to grow. I just give you a free menu to say, where do you see partnerships go wrong? We talk a lot about how they can go right, but when you see CEOs come to you and say, ah, Jason, I, you know, this was a waste of time or a waste of money, or I didn’t know what we were getting into. What are just some common themes? Not naming any names

Jason:
Oh.

Caleb:
of course, but just give you a free menu to say, where do you see pitfalls in the industry?

Jason:
All right. You’re going to have to cut me off because I can take the rest of the hour on this. Um, I’d say, you know, this is going to hit first at one of my pet peeves, the number of times that we’re asked, Hey, which vendor should I use or which partner should I pick? And the answer to that is you’re always a wet problem. Are you trying to solve? And it’s like, well, everyone knows that we’re supposed to be doing more FinTech, right? FinTech, FinTech and digital digital. Well, what your strategic objectives are? really needs to determine what partners are you looking to leverage that are going to get you there? You know, if you think of small business lending, you know, you say your problem is, hey, I need to do digital small business lending. Well, are you looking to actually increase your efficiency? Is that right? Is this you’re really around you’re trying to embed automation? Are you looking for just better control? Do you write? Are you really looking for a process digital process Or are you trying to address new segments, create new segments or new products that exist within your existing base? Are you looking to get into new lines of business? Each one of those is a different potential partner. And you need a clear alignment around that because one of the biggest dangers. And I love, uh, Corey LeBlanc at locality bank, uh, former banks had this funny episode on breaking banks. We were talking about this. He goes, yep. My least favorite. Uh, day is when our CEO comes back from having gone to a conference and wander down the startup exhibit hall. Right. And I like to call that the FinTech petting zoo and just sees a bunch of things, gets a bunch of cards, right? Hands him to Corey, who then like trying to figure out, what is this line up to? Because he doesn’t know the rubric and the CEO’s mind of what am I doing? So he’s trying to vet startups without having an understanding. of what are we trying to do with them? So now that he is the CTO at locality, when we have conversations around finding partners, his lead is this is the kind of problem I’m trying to solve. Who should I be working with? And this leads into why we did the partnership with True Digital. That’s building this amazing database of not just fintech partners, but the tech stacks of underlying banks. And so they’ve seeded this with a good number of our banks. that you can actually see tech stacks and fintech partners and what the purpose of this was in terms of like what an outcome begins to look like. So if you can figure out, hey, what’s the problem I’m trying to solve. They have a database that you can now actually have Patrick refers to it as you need to commoditize the repetitive work. Like you shouldn’t spend all of your time and energy and just, you know, boiling the ocean of all the potential providers. Like that shouldn’t be where all your effort goes. And that’s what the true digital database, you know, begins to solve for is I’ve got a single repository. I can find every startup under the sun. I know who’s already connected to whom out there. And now I can do the second hardest part where partnerships go wrong is the day you go live, the project is really just starting. And I’ll sum that in. This isn’t just FinTech startups. If I look broadly across the number of bank conversations I have around, you know, Salesforce. Are you getting value from Salesforce? And we’re fortunate, like Salesforce treats our group of banks as a strategic partner because we have scale. But where we find most of the banks are struggling with Salesforce is they implemented it and then didn’t change many behaviors. It becomes just a digital activity tracker and no one goes back, you know, in reviews like, what am I going to do? you know, differently now that I have this, what can I automate? What can I learn? Who’s performing better? What are they doing? You know, that Jason’s not, but Caleb’s like 2X and Jason.

Caleb:
Or, or, uh, how do I convince my top producers that it’s worth their time? Because in their mind, well, I’m supposed to be out in the field calling on commercial customers, bringing in deposits, bringing in loans. I don’t have time, Jason, to sit at my desk and log calls and Salesforce. That sounds like a massive waste. I should be out on the golf course. I mean, there’s some mindsets that have to be shifted there. And to your point, you can hire the consultant and get it all set up and implemented, but day one. the project’s just really getting started, what would you say to a manager team that’s struggling with that?

Jason:
So at our annual member meeting a few weeks ago in Nashville, it was based around the concept the entire theme was moving from fragility to agility. And fragile systems are those that, you know, single things, whether it be a black swan event, the completely unexpected or things like say interest rates going from zero to something that’s non-zero. If you have a fragile system. It quickly breaks in response to new forces, right? And what we’re looking for is an agile system that can quickly respond to changing environmental and customer systems. And we broke that up into three pieces. And the first was around, we need to think strategically and have an agile approach to strategy. And that also means an agile approach to what we monitor in the world we’re looking at, right? Like… I’m going to go out on a limb and say, people are probably spending more time than they ever have on ALM. Right. And I think most also have now kind of also popped their head up and gone, Ooh, we also need to pay a lot more attention to digital and digital flows than ever before, because that is the spits spigot that gets turned on by which your, your ALM changes so fast. So we’re monitoring new things and I need to have some scenarios and responses around it. So the first third of our program was really discussion. We had 110 bankers there representing. to 60% of the Alliance talking about, you know, how are they thinking through it? The second part was around how do we actually take our systems or technology stacks in particular and how do we make those more flexible? Because you can’t go by another rigid system in response to all of this. You have to respond adequately. You need to actually be able to do it in a very timely fashion, which means now more than ever. systems. Actually, Chris had made this point last year at a strategy and business model center of excellence that we operate is like, you know, if we looked at what happened during PPP, there were a number of platforms that didn’t quite cross the ROI bar for us. But we also didn’t have an ROI, any kind of metric around what is the value of flexibility. And so huge opportunities end up being lost when I can’t repurpose, right? If I have to pull it out altogether or it’s no longer useful, or if I can’t build on it, right? Like I lose value there. And then the last thing, and this is where I think you were going is we also need to change our culture. So what is the culture of the bank of the future look like? And it’s not look like the culture that we have today because what we’re doing is changing so much. Right.

Caleb:
And along those lines, when a problem gets identified and let’s say we know where we need to go, we’re not sure exactly which partner to select, maybe there’s a few different options. As you talk to banks in your consortium, is it typically a top-down approach where the executives notice the problem and tell the team members and the employees, hey, this is what we’re gonna do, or is it? The reverse is at a groundswell where the folks in deposit operations say, well, man, this is a big problem. Here are some solutions or the lenders or the IT folks are trying to sort of lobby and make their case to the, you know, to the higher ups, to the executive team. Which one do you kind of see more of?

Jason:
Um, I’d say the most successful are the ones that do both that the top has made it a very clear mandate that we need to go solve customer problems. But it often is the frontline that is closest to the problem that can identify the opportunity. We talk a lot about Clayton Christensen’s pains, gains, jobs to be done. It is often the frontline, especially if you empower them with a combination of some training, like even just watching the pains, gains, jobs to be done video from Clayton Christensen in giving them a way to actually begin to talk about that to the higher ups, to give them. It may be as simple as the idea box sitting outside of the break room or next to the water cooler to put ideas down and show that you’re going to put something behind it and not to pick on any middle managers who are listening to this, but often it’s middle management is the problem because they have all of the down. So if an idea is percolating up, they have all of the downside. If it doesn’t work. And none of the upside because it wasn’t their idea and likely it will be someone above them that gets the credit who became the executive sponsor for this. So without being careful about this, that middle management’s job is to maintain the status quo and really, you know, middle management was created, you know, under organizational theory. Its job is to promote efficiency, not change. And so we like to talk about it within Alloy Labs Institute is you need programs to change the state, right? So you need to specifically think about running a program to go do something new to see if it actually can improve a result result. And then it graduates into systems that maintain the state, right? The purpose of the system is to say, now that we have this, how do we drive down costs? How do we reduce risk or keep it within the appropriate risk box? How do we ensure all the things related to compliance are happening? But that’s set of managerial skills are different. than the program that was changing the state.

Caleb:
So if I was gonna sort of pull out maybe the four pitfalls that I’ve kind of written down here from this discussion, one would be if you wanna totally derail your FinTech partnership process, one is don’t define the problem before you jump into something. Two would be assume the work is done once you’ve signed the contract and gotten the system installed and think you’re good to go. Three would be ignore your culture and don’t foster a culture of adaptability and flexibility and change. And four would be, think about your competitors as the same bank down the street that’s about the same size as you and not other threats and forces in the industry that are maybe no less important, but not as apparent, but still

Jason:
Yes.

Caleb:
no less important. Anything else before we wrap up, Jason, you wanna add on that?

Jason:
I mean, the last is related to culture is if you look at the company formerly known as Google, now known as Alphabet, their X factor, right? This is where they are supposed to produce moonshots. They did something really important around how do you think about failure? And they defined failure as actually continuing to pursue an idea after all learning is done. And that means that things that don’t work the way you intended, if you cut them off, right, don’t treat them like a core conversion. Whereas like once you start the process, you very rarely, you know, end it midstream, right? You follow a waterfall. And I know what I’m doing on week 28 in terms of doing my second data cut. And I know what the step is after that, that if it is a true partnership, which is something you are doing that you haven’t done before, likely has not been done elsewhere, right? They say, we’re launching Salesforce, or we’re launching a mobile app that is not innovation, right? You are not exploring the unknown. You can go hire yourself a good implementation consultant who can write the Gantt chart for you. But if you’re say doing something, say your recent graduates from the concept lab, the postage is a platform for managing family transitions with a new product around small business around. There’s a whole host of things that happen over 15 years that it isn’t just about the estate plan. There’s a whole wrap. involves different people with different roles at different times. For our first bank, like American state bank of Iowa, um, who’s the first partner they signed, this is a first time that their insurance business is talking to their small business is talking to their wealth group around, we need to do something holistic, right? There’s no consultant. You can go higher to go do that because it hasn’t been done before, but they think they’re going to win, you know, and maintain business with it because you can’t get it anywhere else. Right. So that, but the reason I bring up the failure is the couple things they’re going to do might not work as well as they expected. It’s not over. It’s if you just keep doing the things that aren’t working, that’s a failure.

Caleb:
Last question, we haven’t talked about chat GPT. We can’t get out of here and talk about technology without talking about chat GPT. What’s in your mind, what are the changes on the horizon for banks?

Jason:
I mean, one of the important here is need to think very carefully and get clear on you should not be using the public version of chat GPD if it is any kind of customer sensitive information, right? Probably shouldn’t even be running that on. Um, you know, your work machine, but there are private instances of GPT and LLMs that you can run that can do very interesting things. Chris wrote a great blog post on this, but even on the public version side, say you’re not doing an install, it can fundamentally change your repetitive work. And so like we’ve pushed our team internally for doing things like, Hey, write an agenda for a cybersecurity center of excellence that includes the following five topics. Now turn that into a summary of why people should attend the meeting. Hey, we use a private AI called spiky AI that we use that actually can summarize meetings for us. Right. But we run it, you know, private, it’s not showing up in any other LLM, but it fundamentally changes the work because the people who are now moderating our centers of excellence don’t have to be worried about capturing every to do because they’re getting an auto summary. They can focus on being the facilitator versus the note taker. And it will change people within the lines of business from being a writer to becoming an editor that frees up a whole lot of, you know, human mental CPUs for them to do more impactful work. And for that relationship manager who thinks the importance is being on the golf course is going to fundamentally change that job because you better have come in with a whole bunch of insights about that person you’re golfing with. rather than talking about the weather, the humidity, how bad Jason’s hook is, and you know, how bad my putting all the other things about how bad my golf is, right? It is not the interesting thing that is going to build a value based relationship, right? The value of the relationship is not the number of times you take me golfing. That’s not a winnable strategy,

Caleb:
Yeah.

Jason:
but if the time that Caleb does take me golfing, he can add value to my business. That is a strengthened relationship And LLM’s more broadly, the idea of generative AI is going to be much more impactful and change a lot of the repetitive work that bogs us down.

Caleb:
That’s a great point. Well Jason, if folks want to learn more about Alloy Labs, if they want to listen to your show, Breaking Banks, how can they find you guys?

Jason:
Alloylabs.com, A-L-L-O-Y, labs.com. Don’t go to alloy.com or alloy.io, although they will certainly send you over. We trade leads all the time. Who knew another FinTech there. And if you want to listen to any of the series of shows we have, if you go to provoke.fm, we have Breaking Banks, Breaking Banks Europe, Breaking Banks Asia Pacific, the Finnovate podcast. The Emerge Podcast, which is the Financial Health Networks Podcast, and the NextGen Banker hosted by Sunrise Banks. And last but not least, the Tech on Reg podcast hosted by Dara Tarkowski. And I bring that one up because she’s been talking quite a bit around risk compliance, privacy concerns as it relates to AI.

Caleb:
Fantastic. Well, Jason, always appreciate the thoughts and the discussion and hope to see you out on the conference circuit this summer.

Jason:
Sounds good.