The 8 Paradoxes of Great Leadership with Dr. Tim Elmore

Intro: Helping community bankers grow themselves, their team, and their profits this is The Community bank podcast.

Erik Bagwell: Welcome to the community bank podcast, I’m Eric Bagwell, director of sales and marketing for the correspondent division South State Bank; joining me as always Caleb Stevens, Caleb is a Business Development Officer and also helps us out on the podcast Caleb, how are you?

Caleb Stevens: Good to be back on the show, really excited for this discussion with Tim Elmore I’ve met him a number of years ago and man, what a great leader he has got a new book out called “The Eight Paradoxes of Great Leadership” and just excited for folks to hear this discussion, I really enjoyed it and I think they will as well.

Erik Bagwell: Yeah Tim this was a very good interview, I think this will be a popular show for us. Tim has worked with a lot of couple of sports teams, spoken to a lot of large corporations and.

Caleb Stevens: Yeah Home Depot, Ohio State, Kansas, City Royals, he is really a leadership expert and he is also like a generational expert and what I mean by that is gen Z Millennials, baby boomers, he gen X, he’s got so much content related to specific generations and how to lead people in those generations and he has kind of built his whole growing leaders nonprofit off of developing those younger leaders and so he is a wealth of knowledge and I am excited for folks to hear it.

Erik Bagwell: We’ll get to that interview in just a minute, but before we get there let’s want to mention this our bond accounting report that Tom Fitzgerald puts out, Tom normally joins us on the podcast, he has got a new one out we have mentioned it a lot of you guys will go out and, pull this report. Caleb talked to everybody about how they can get this report.

Caleb Stevens: So like we said last week, we do bond accounting for around 130 banks or so and what Tom does is he aggregates the portfolios and looks at all the trends, the breakdown on the portfolio, book yield, unrealized loss, or gains so many different metrics that help people kind of get a look into what’s the average community bank doing in their bond portfolio and I know a lot of CFOs out there are trying to put some cash to work and so we think this can be a helpful resource as you think through that and we have got a lot of CFOs who use it in their board packages as well. So to get that go to, southstatecorrespondent.com/bondreport , southstatecorrespondent.com/bondreport.

Erik Bagwell: And guys as always thank you, thank you for listening to the podcast we really appreciate it and hope you will enjoy this interview with Tim Elmore let’s go to it now.

Caleb Stevens: Well Tim thanks for joining the podcast this morning it’s great to be talking with you, how are you?

Tim Elmore: I’m well Caleb how about you today?

Caleb Stevens: Doing fantastic and I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this story, but one of the first times I ever heard you speak, it was 2014, I went to your big leadership conference you have each summer and you shared a story that I have never forgotten; and to this day I still share it with people it was about Dick Fosbury and the Fosbury flop and I think the theme that summer was called “adjusting the sales, or shifting the sales”. It was about changing direction and being agile and being nimble and when Dick Fosbury invented sort of the high jump where he would go you know, I guess a head first backwards would lift his legs up; it was like, people made fun of them, it looked ridiculous and now that’s the industry standard for how you do, is it the, I guess it’s not the, is it the pole vault or the high jump? I can’t remember what the Olympic event was.

Tim Elmore: You have a very good memory, Caleb so you did that spotless, it’s the high jump event and it was the 68 Olympics in Mexico city and he showed up with two different color shoes and a weird way to get over the bar everybody laughed until he stepped up to on the podium and got his gold medal and then everybody said, let’s do it like he does that how leadership is we laugh at the outlier at first and then we go, holy smokes that’s a better way of doing it.

Caleb Stevens: Yeah well, what that highlighted for me is how talented you are at coming up with these pictorial images and metaphors for building habits, for developing your character for growing as a leader. Talk a little bit about why that matters to you and give us a little fly over of your background up to this point, developing young leaders and the work you’ve done with John Maxwell as well.

Tim Elmore: Yeah well, I have been very, very fortunate I have had mentors, good parents, I always tell people if I don’t do a good job, it’s my own fault because I’ve had some great people around me. So I worked for Dr. John Maxwell for 20 years, right out of college and so I felt like I didn’t have to unlearn a lot of bad leadership habits. I just saw a very strong, clear leader so “growing leaders”, my nonprofit which I started in 2003, grew out of my 20 years with John and it’s really, it’s really been focused primarily on the emerging generation of leaders; so instead of focusing on them, when they’re 58 years old, how about 18 years old? What if we built good habits in them and they are career ready when they come out of the shoot? So that’s really what we’re after and we have the undeserved privilege of partnering with loads of businesses, schools, athletic departments, sports teams, and just building a whole other generation of leaders.

Caleb Stevens: It’s crazy how times flung, because I remember that year millennials was still kind of all the rage Gen Z was sort of coming to the forefront, but it wasn’t quite [inaudible 05:13], and now it’s all gen Z and to hear you, I mean, just the expertise you have on the different generations, the themes, the parallels, the similarities, the differences. And I mean, you’ve done a remarkable job over the years, helping managers and leaders understand the next generation and how do you lead them? Because I love how you don’t take the approach of well, they are entitled and they are lazy and you know, I have heard you say, this has the opportunity of the millennials at the time, has the opportunity to be the greatest generation, if we can help them and coach them well and understand how they’re different and so I like how you, you say don’t totally push off the stereotypes because there may be some truth to it, but also see all the upside as well.

Tim Elmore: No doubt you know, what you’re describing right now is really one of my passions and I simply call it a new kind of diversity, we are all familiar with ethnic diversity and gender diversity and income diversity, but I think generational diversity is in the marketplace right now and we often don’t know quite how to connect when we are perhaps 55 years old and there’s a 22 year old coming in with a very different set of language, customs and values, like a cross-cultural relationship and so, yeah, I’m lobbying all the time for saying just like we put an extra work when we go to China because we know they’re different; we need to put that extra work into connecting with that person from a very different generation because all of us have something to add to each other if we’ll listen, yeah.

Caleb Stevens: Well, you have got a new book out coming out here and just a week or so called “The Eight Paradoxes of Great Leadership” and I love that title. My question for you is, A is this your first book writing? Maybe not just strictly in terms of developing younger leaders and then secondly, there is hundreds of leadership books out there as you know I mean, you work with the man, the myth, the legend himself, John Maxwell has written 70 books. Why this book, what compelled you to write it?

Tim Elmore: Good question, if I were honest, I would say the impetus for this book happened in a green room, right before a conference. I was back there with 16 CEOs we were all going to be presenting that day and I decided to turn that green room into an instant focus group; so I tossed out the question to every one of these men and women. I said, do you think leading today is harder than when you first started leading back in the day? Whenever that was and every single person to the individual said absolutely, one of them said 110%, and then I kind of volley back by saying, well you know that’s really strange that we think this way, because what do you think it’d be harder way back when you’re 25 and you didn’t know much about leadership, but everybody stuck to their guns and that sent me on a search.

Tim Elmore: Why is it that this issue of leading teams has become so complex today? The stakes seem higher, there’s armchair quarterbacks everywhere; in fact, they’re on social media, learning all the dirt on you, you know that sort of thing so I don’t mean to over speak, but as I began to dig, I do believe we’re leading in very complex times. I don’t mean to say that COVID-19 has made it even more complex even the wisest leader isn’t quite sure what’s happening in six months, but on top of that think about this for just a minute; when people come and join our team, they bring a higher level of education in terms of every new generation brings a higher level education data shows higher expectations of leaders. So if you’re leading today, we expect more than maybe 30 years ago when you were a leader and you are disposed to kind of bark out the orders and everybody does what the guy says. They bring higher levels of entitlement, Hampshire University has just told, and it’s not an evil thing it’s just, we feel entitled to more perks and benefits and so forth and then higher levels of emotion. Caleb when I first started my career, the typical mantra for a supervisor was leave your personal problems at the door, come in and get your work done, well today it’s bring your whole selves to work, which could be baggage and emotion and all kinds of stuff and I don’t mean to throw anybody under the bus; it’s just like leaders going, I have to be a coach, a therapist, a cheerleader, a motivational speaker and I don’t know if bankers feel the same way, but I bet they do. It’s like I’ve got to somehow rustle up the energy and the focus to move forward and I really believe that is the need of the hour, it’s social and emotional skills that we’ve never had quite had to have before in the past.

Caleb Stevens: Tim there is hundreds of leadership books that are out there, you can walk into Barnes and Noble anywhere, and they’re just, they’re everywhere tell us what makes this book different than the ones that make sense for years.

Tim Elmore: That’s a great question and it’s a wordy the question. Well I would say I clearly do not print pretend to be John Maxwell, Stephen Covey, Jim Collins, this book, the good news about this book is it’s not about a better business plan or a better marketing strategy it’s about social and emotional skills that are within the reach of everyone. So while your IQ doesn’t change a whole lot over our lifetime EQ can change and be developed; so this book is about, I believe the juggling act that leaders need to do between the paradoxes and I list eight of them in this book that on any given moment on, let’s say on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM, they may need you to be confident but 1:00 PM, they need you to be humble and oftentimes those seem very oxymoronic, like how could you be both? But we need to be. So it’s reading our people before we’re leading our people, that’s really what it’s all about and that’s what I try to make that’s what I think differentiates this book is it’s teaching how to read and which paradox to which card to play in your hand to lead your people the very best for what they need at the moment.

Caleb Stevens: All right so I was driving in the car last week, I hadn’t traveled much lately now that’s in the last 18 months was in the car for like four hours, the other day, and listened to a podcast and it was all about World War II and specifically George Patton and they don’t make people like him anymore; I don’t know if there’s a place for somebody like him in the military anymore, but great leaders are very uncommon it seems like it today, why is that?

Tim Elmore: Well probably a little bit of the answer is what I just said that the cost is so high that the expectations of a leader. I don’t know if you all know this, but fortune magazine carried a feature article last year called the great CEO exodus of 2020; dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of fortune 500 CEOs were just leaving the job in the first quarter, in the first quarter of the year. So when the study got bigger than it actually began a couple of years earlier more so than normal and then listen to this, Inc. Magazine carried an article this year called “The Great Resignation is on and it is real”. Did you guys see this? And I mean, in April, May and June of 2021, 11.5 million people just resigned from the job, now I don’t know what their plan is financially to just quit maybe they are going to a different place, a better place; but I think people are just weary, I think we are suffering from decision fatigue. I don’t know if you guys felt this way, but last year I felt like I made a year’s worth of decisions in one month, you know, to come into the office, don’t come in, mask, no mask stay six feet apart, make it eight feet, you know? I mean, it’s just like, what are we doing here? So I do feel like we’re in a very strange time in history we will probably look back on this later and go, well, isn’t that funky? That was just weird, you know? But this book, it certainly isn’t the end all answer, but it’s just, as we find ourselves saying man I’m tired. This gives us a tool to read what the moment needs and say let me be that what my people need me to be, so they can get to the goal they need to get to yeah.

Caleb Stevens: Well if you don’t mind Tim, give us a real quick fly over of the eight paradoxes and then maybe we can pick two or three to drill down into, and then the folks can go by the book and they can unpack the rest.

Tim Elmore: There you go okay, that would be fine, I’ll do my best to keep this reader’s digest version here. I list eight paradoxes there may be 8,000, I don’t know, but I list eight. The first one I alluded to just briefly earlier, I think uncommon leaders are both confident and humble, and my basic thought on this one is our confidence makes our leadership believable, people need a confident leader we rarely get to the goal without someone having some confidence, but our humility makes our confidence believable. If I am confident all the time people go, what are you smoking? You know, you can’t be this good you know, I think our humility lets them know we are human we realize we don’t have all the answers, but I think we can do this together so my case study on that one was Bob Iger, who did recently resigned as the CEO of Disney.

Tim Elmore: He came in not knowing how to run a company that made plush toys, theme, park tickets you know movies, animations, but he did it and it was I’m listening to my team, and then I’m leading my team, it was just a brilliant combo. The next one is really, really fun and very paradoxical, I think uncommon leaders leverage both their vision and their blind spots; so most of us get tripped up by our blind spots and we need our vision. I think leaders have both. So Sara Blakely is my case study for this one, Sarah was the inventor of Spanx and actually created a whole new industry shape for women, but her vision was to develop this new product, her blind spot was, she didn’t know how to build a delivery system, a distribution system for these, you know new pantyhose or whatever.

Tim Elmore: She calls an executive up at Neiman Marcus; fly’s out and gets 10 minutes with this female executive. She walks in, she starts pitching the product, ask this lady to walk into the restroom with her so she could try them on. She tries on this Spanx right there in the restroom and the lady goes sold you know, now the reason I say this is the paradox is, Sarah Blakely was later in a Q and A session with a bunch of other entrepreneurs and they are asking her, how did she get the attention of Neiman Marcus in a trade show with thousands of exhibitors all around? And she said trade show, I didn’t know you were supposed to do a trade show I just went straight to the top and the point was, it was her very blind spot, it was what she didn’t know that launched her into this billionaire lifestyle.

Tim Elmore: So anyway that’s another one, oh I love this one, I think uncommon leaders are both stubborn and open-minded, isn’t that difficult? So my illustration here is Truett Cathy, he founder of Chick-fil-A here is this guy that just passed away maybe six, seven years ago, boy he was stubborn on certain things like closed on Sunday and this, that and the other, but yet boy his team, his own son, Dan said he was so open-minded. So he had a core that he was stubborn about and it was his people in his values, but he was so adaptable and so open on so many other things, a brilliant case study on stubborn and open mind.

Caleb Stevens: So let’s park there, maybe just for a second and unpack that one a little bit. So I interned at Chick-fil-A when I was in college in the marketing department, and I remember there was no facial hair, you had this and things have changed a little bit since then this was 2015. You had to wear a tie every day, there was no facial hair and I actually heard somebody tell me that the spicy chicken sandwich, which is not new anymore but 10, 15 years ago, it was probably relatively new; they said that was ready years before it came out I mean, years Truett did not like spicy food and they didn’t put it out and yet you see this company and it’s innovative, it’s remarkable, it’s sort of the gold standard when we think of quick service the industry, I mean, it’s what they’ve built is incredible we have had a lot of executives from Chick-fil-A on this show and yet I remember hearing Truett was kind of a bulldog about certain things; a lot of it was values driven, closed on Sunday, that sort of thing but then there were also things that he just had a preference for in terms of how he believed people should show up and present themselves at work that he believed in too and so I thought, I totally see that but you read this paradox and you say stubborn and open-minded then how does that go together? But that’s a great example.

Tim Elmore: One thing Dan told me his son that was just moving, he said, Tim, I remember my dad when I was a teenager working at the Dwarf House, he said my dad asked me to get a ladder and climb up on the roof of the restaurant because he said he heard noises up there, so Dan here is this 17 year old kid climbing up; he said, I got to the top of the roof and there were beer cans all over the place, just rolling around, well I knew it was Charlie; Charlie was the night manager and Charlie was an alcoholic, but yet he would try to sober up to come into work and Dan said, when I climbed down the ladder, I thought to myself, there goes, Charlie you know, he’s out, he’s gone you know, and you know, you would think to Truett’s values, he would not want an alcoholic there.

Tim Elmore: Dan said, you know what my dad did, he walked into Charlie and he said Charlie, let’s go to AA we are going to get you well and Charlie got well, he got he got through it and Dan said he finished his career there, but Truett was stubborn about people. He loved his people and he would go to bat and he would find any way he could possibly find to keep you around and I think, oh my gosh, what a great leader who wouldn’t want to work for a leader like that? Who wouldn’t want to say I’ll do your values because you kept me here, so anyway that was just one picture of that.

Caleb Stevens: Well, the next one you preach that I think is super interesting and also a tremendous paradox, uncommon leaders embrace both visibility and invisibility. What do you mean by that?

Tim Elmore: Yeah my case study there was Dr. Martin Luther King, so in a nutshell in the late fifties and early sixties, Dr. King was the clear civil rights leader, even though he was a pastor of a church, he was well beyond the church walls and I mean, he was visible he made himself visible, he thought I got to lead these marches, I got to lead these boycotts, I got to make the speeches. He purposely got himself thrown into prison multiple times, total of 29 times so visibility clear, but by the mid-sixties he realized I know if I stay around and stay visible in the room, each meeting, people are not going to speak up they’ll always defer to me. John Lewis wouldn’t speak up. Jesse Jackson wouldn’t speak up Andrew excuse me Ralph Abernathy wouldn’t speak up, so there were times that Dr. King would not show up and it was, he was invisible. If I can put it that way, it was his absence that challenged John Lewis to speak up and step up and sometimes he would be on the phone. John, you know what to say? You do this so I thought what a brilliant intuitive leader that knew, I got to set an example for sure. So I trained through my presence, but I also trained through my absence there is times I need to step back and get out of the way and let them do it.

Caleb Stevens: I heard a leader. One time I asked him, I said, you’ve got so many different startups and side hustles going and that you are an executive. How do you do it all? And he says I use my MBA, management by absence.

Tim Elmore: Yea, I got it, that kind of what we’re talking about here? Well, in that chapter I try to get really practical. How do you know when it’s time to step away from a task? How do you know when you have trained a person? I don’t know if many people are talking about how do you know, I know how to teach and train you know, but I just feel like that’s a very, very important issue for sure. Another one that I really, really loved its all of these are certain categories of paradoxes; this is the paradox of communication. I believe uncommon leaders are both deeply personal and inherently collective, now what I mean by this is they need to be collective when a leader steps up and speaks everybody needs to go, all right he or she gets the big picture, they understand what’s going on they understand the numbers, they get the budget blah, blah, blah. But, deeply personal means, but I feel like he understands me you know, I feel like he gets me, I felt like he was talking right to me, isn’t it true? Haven’t you ever been to a meeting or church service? You go, he’s talking right to me, you know? And my case study here was Mother Teresa she was so collective in her understanding of the need in Calcutta and beyond for the impoverished, for the people with tuberculosis and leprosy and she’d go raise money and she get a whole business building donated to her because she talked about individual stories and a baby she had just held that day. No time to go into the details, but I believe this is so critical that we are personal and collective, one more quick snapshot on this one.

Tim Elmore: I don’t know if you, guys probably both remember this on September 11th, 2001, America was changed and in the aftermath, the New York city mayor Rudy Giuliani, I realized he’s gotten controversial since that time, but he was this, he was so collected he was telling the fire department what to do, police department what to do, here is how we need to approach this, here is the bridges we need to close down right now. But then you would see him attending a funeral for somebody that passed away and saying oh we are going to miss Nancy and you thought man, what a brilliant chaplain mayor, you know? So anyway that’s just an important place to, I don’t know if you wanted to keep going I know I’m kind of monopolized this conversation. Alright so just a couple of others, I think uncommon leaders of both teachers and learners, we all believe that, but that’s hard to practice.

Tim Elmore: Angela Aaron says my case study there, here’s a great one, this is what my team said they wanted to talk about most when I taught it to my own team, I believe uncommon leaders have both high standards and gracious forgiveness. Now think with me about this, we all believe this but it’s so hard to practice. I believe industry leaders have high standards, people look up and go oh my gosh, you are the marketplace leader in this industry the standards are so high. But if you only have high standards, people will take risks they’ll go good God, I don’t want to get fired here, you know? So they will, they won’t really take the risk you want them to take to excel, you have to add gracious forgiveness, but think about it, if you only have gracious forgiveness, you won’t get excellent labor, there’ll be mediocre go oh, he’ll forgive me both juxtaposed against each other produce a brilliant team taking risks, but knowing it’s safe to fail along the way.

Caleb Stevens: Who’s your case study for that one?

Tim Elmore: My case study for this one was a none other than Harriet Tubman.

Caleb Stevens: Oh yeah.

Tim Elmore: So I went back into history, the 1860s, so we all know Harriet Tubman as the leader of the “Underground Railroad”; she led hundreds of slaves to freedom, but you know her story is quite interesting. So the high standards I’m smiling because it’s so uncanny it would be, it would not go over well today in her, the way she practiced it, she’d get a band of slaves that she was leading from the south up to the north to freedom and on always, she would find slaves that just got a little antsy about the whole thing; this is scary I don’t know if we’re going to make it and they would start threatening they’re going to leave. She put a gun to their head and say, you’re not leaving if you leave, we’re all going to be thrown under the bus and lose our lives. So she got into their head this person she loves and they go okay, I’m staying, you know? Okay, and then she graciously forgive them, so I laced that chapter with story after story, after story about leaders, business leaders actually, because most of us can’t really relate to Harriet Tubman who have had this standard, but they were so good about going to the people saying, I know you just made a million dollar mistake, but I think I just spent a million dollars training you, I don’t want to lose you let’s keep going you know, that sort of thing. So just a great, great, great thing that I have to remind myself of all the time.

Tim Elmore: So one more there is one more, I end the book with this paradox, I think uncommon leaders are both timely and timeless so they are very relevant and cutting edge, you know, on what technology to use today, how to approach this mission today. But they never are so progressive that they don’t bring with them those timeless values that we know made this company great in the beginning and our grandparents taught us as children you know, honesty and discipline will never go out of style. I promise you I’ll always high hire an honest disciplined person over a dishonest undisciplined person so in that chapter, Walt Disney is my case study. He was a brilliant picture of the timeline he’s into animatronics and then teaches us about early America, you know, it’s just incredible how he combined the two so I will stop there, that’s kind of a quick overview of the eight paradoxes.

Caleb Stevens: Tim, let’s go back, I just want to go back to one real quick, I love the one about the blind spots now what a great story; see didn’t even know what a trade show was and that’s really cool. How do people, and everybody’s got blind spots, whether you admit it or not, how does somebody go about discovering those and leveraging those?

Tim Elmore: Yeah, so the argument I make like an attorney and that chapter is we have got to leverage rookie smarts. We’ve all heard that term rookie smarts. That’s the ability, usually the ability to have a new person in an industry because they don’t know what they’re doing to kind of go oh, I got lucky, I got lucky again, I got lucky again, you know, the Wright brothers they didn’t know what they were doing, there just put a bicycle in the air, you know? So rookie smarts are the key and I talk about how to practice those, but I tell you what I think I’m hearing from your question is this, I think we need people around us from other industries so they don’t get locked into this way to do banking or this way to do, you know, Wal-Mart or whatever, but they’ll hold us accountable to press toward the goal.

Tim Elmore: There’ll be less bound by methodology or pedagogy or the business plan, in the original state and more open to the other so here’s a great example that I put in the chapter. One story we’ve all gotten familiar with I think over the years is 37 year old entrepreneur named Reed sold his tech company in California in 1997 and made a lot of money so he and his wife celebrate by watching a movie at home from blockbuster. We all remember blockbuster videos okay, the movie was Apollo 13 they lost the video cassette. When he finally finds it, he returns it to blockbuster has this huge fine, Reed said as he drove away from blockbuster that day, he thought two thoughts to himself. One, how am I going to tell my wife, we got this huge, fine, you know leveled against us. But two, there’s got to be a better way to do home entertainment.

Tim Elmore: And of course we know that Reed Hastings started Netflix; the story many people don’t know is he actually took that idea early on to Blockbuster and they turned him down. You know, they just said ah, we got this so they had confused methods with myths mission with programs, with purpose. So they figured video cassettes was their end goal, no it wasn’t that was a means to an end and I think in this chapter, I try to help leaders really separate methods from mission and be willing to try the stuff nobody else is trying its Blue Ocean strategy I don’t know if you guys ever read that book, but it’s swimming in a brand new blue ocean, rather than that red ocean, that’s red with the blood of competitors fighting against each other, just start a whole new way of doing it. So habitudes this image based learning crick; we have tens of thousands of organizations, 2.2 million young leaders have gone through habitudes, sell published but here’s the deal. It was a whole new way of teaching timeless leadership principles with an image you know, like we’ve talked about the one behind me. So I don’t think I invented leadership principles, oh my gosh, this has been taught for thousands of years, but a new way of doing it. So this chapter is on leveraging rookie smarts; I don’t know what I was doing when I started growing leaders, thank God you know.

Caleb Stevens: Kind of reminds me too of the Jim Collins principle of preserve the core, but stimulate progress kind of a similar parallel to the you know, marry the mission date the methods is a Andy Stanley, I think says so.

Tim Elmore: Yeah, that’s exactly what this is, it’s a kin to that; it’s a second cousin to that very principle, yeah.

Caleb Stevens: Well the folks are hearing this and they’re saying, man I got to buy this book. I want to dive deeper into the resources that you provide the leaders. How can they engage with you? Find your books, find your materials, maybe book you to speak, how can they connect with you?

Tim Elmore: Yeah, well the quickest and easiest single step is probably just going to my website, timelmore.com. So, timelmore.com, you can find the book and pre-ordered and if you pre-order the book you’ll get a whole bunch of extras you get actually a 10 video course that comes free with the order of the book, if you pre-ordered ahead of November 2nd. But yeah growingleaders.com is also the next gen nonprofit that I lead and that, I think that’s what we got connected Caleb a long time ago. I’m proud of you and how far you have come in the few years since I seen you, so cool to see what you’re up to these days and I wish that we had a thousand more of you around, absolutely.

Caleb Stevens: Well I appreciate the kind words and I have enjoyed kind of being mentored from you from a distance through all your curriculum and all the content that you put out so thank you for your time and to hope everybody can go out and get this book.

Tim Elmore: Great, thanks guys.